Petty's Purist LotR Edits [4]

I do wonder if the parts I thought okay were due to Toro. - Orwell

{{He does still have a credit on the script, so there must be some of his stuff left. Given he left before filming began its reasonable to assume he had not got that far in scripting and I am inclined to think this is why the first film is closer to book than anything that came later. }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I do wonder if the parts I thought okay were due to Toro. - Orwell

{{He does still have a credit on the script, so there must be some of his stuff left. Given he left before filming began its reasonable to assume he had not got that far in scripting and I am inclined to think this is why the first film is closer to book than anything that came later. }}

My thoughts too. Crack the plates and Misty mountain and the goblin song smack of the book a bit.

{{ The goblin song is a new addition to my edit of film 1- I cant actually remember now but I think when I did the original edit I only had the theatrical cut and it did not include that song. Its a little over the top- actually more than anything in feel it reminds me somewhat of Labyrinth that scene. But as its at least based on the song the goblins sing in the book it felt right to keep it and to maintain the same tone throughout (also notable that film 1contains three full songs whilst 2 and 3 have none).
Like the book film 2 'grows up' as it goes on, but I found by keeping the focus firmly on Bilbo it retains the books feel much better (astonishingly in PJ's version of the 3rd film Bilbo disappears from the story for the better part of an hour without a single appearance (and not becuase as in book he has been knocked out during the fight- this before the fight even starts!) whilst the plot goes off with Legolas and Tauriel and a lot of nonsense with Fili and Tauriel love story and the athelas call back (forward) and stuff about Thranduil and a load of rubbish with Gandalf, Galadriel and Saruman taking down the Necromancer, plus a lot of really bad stuff with Azog. Bilbo is simply forgotten about and when it does come back to him its largely used in service of furthering Thorin's story.  
Making it firmly Bilbos story once more is probably my greatest achievement with these edits if I may say so.}}

Just watched the re-edits of the first half, and enjoyed it quite a bit (though a half bottle of wine probably played a role there). You've added back quite a bit from the last version (thanks for the wager scene, which I suppose was a tip of the hat to me), and I'm quite curious to find why you decided to add the bit of Azog back in. I suppose it has something to do with what you found necessary for the 2nd half. Some other interesting new choices in there which I'm sure you'll rethink a bit more with time.

A few rough transitions that you may figure out how to smooth over. The first was right after Gandalf gives Sting to Bilbo. I suspect slow fades and playing with the sound track may fix these.

Very much looking forward to the 2nd half. This dry run was good because it taught me to check that audio was switched to HDMI if I pipe it through the telly, though if we want the commentary to happen tomorrow I suppose I'll keep it on my laptop.

{{ yes the wager scene was at your request and I dont find it so henious I cant bear it unlike other stuff, its at least light hearted.
Azog is necessary, he features so promininently going on and for him to just pop up out of nowhere at the end would be very odd, though he is not Azog in this version he is Bolg really, leading the orcs of the Misty Mountains from the escape from the goblin tunnels onwards. This is also the reason the Thorin flashback scene to him fighting Azog is gone. I think youll find this works better if you forget you know anything about Pjs version and Azog.

I had some issues with the cut following the giving of the sword as what happens immediatly after that line is very stupid and obviously cant stay in- Gandalf ruins Bilbo's pity moment by foreshadowing it and directing Bilbo how to act and then Radagast turns up on his bunny sled and there is an orc attack etc its all awful. There is a fade to black on it as it and a crossfade on the sound, but its not as smooth as I'd like, it needs another shot to put in after Gandalf speaks I couldnt find.

'Some other interesting new choices in there which I'm sure you'll rethink a bit more with time.'

Any in particular you had in mind as theres nothing in temr sof scene content Im particulary unhappy (given the available material) about bar a couple of not as smooth as Id like moments in cuts (though they are fewer than before)? }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ The goblin song is a new addition to my edit of film 1- I cant actually remember now but I think when I did the original edit I only had the theatrical cut and it did not include that song. Its a little over the top- actually more than anything in feel it reminds me somewhat of Labyrinth that scene. But as its at least based on the song the goblins sing in the book it felt right to keep it and to maintain the same tone throughout (also notable that film 1contains three full songs whilst 2 and 3 have none).
Like the book film 2 'grows up' as it goes on, but I found by keeping the focus firmly on Bilbo it retains the books feel much better (astonishingly in PJ's version of the 3rd film Bilbo disappears from the story for the better part of an hour without a single appearance (and not becuase as in book he has been knocked out during the fight- this before the fight even starts!) whilst the plot goes off with Legolas and Tauriel and a lot of nonsense with Fili and Tauriel love story and the athelas call back (forward) and stuff about Thranduil and a load of rubbish with Gandalf, Galadriel and Saruman taking down the Necromancer, plus a lot of really bad stuff with Azog. Bilbo is simply forgotten about and when it does come back to him its largely used in service of furthering Thorin's story.  
Making it firmly Bilbos story once more is probably my greatest achievement with these edits if I may say so.}}

You did well with film 2-3.

I am glad I did not see the original of Film 3. My very, very, very low expectations got me through. I almost liked the movie. You know a truer sticking to Tolkien would have made it far more dramatic and moving, but, well, I guess I did not hate it. It’s beautifully made in places, but too many scenes are animation-plus; the actors do the best, and I like them mainly, though the script, mostly, is crap. Making it firmly Bilbos tale helps a hell of a lot. A+ editing, F- film overall. I kind of got over it being Tolkien’s tale, just a fantasy, showing how much I girded my loins before watching it, and so I can even give it D- overall (the edit, Jackson still F-)

I found the goblin king song acceptable for some reason. And the eager was fine by me. This accepting some things as ‘less-bad’ than all the odious things.

{{ If I ever make a mock up poster - "I almost liked the movie." -Orwell - is definently going on it! }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ If I ever make a mock up poster - "I almost liked the movie." -Orwell - is definently going on it! }}

It was kind of like an old vinyl with the needle jumping at times. But what can you do. You know, the film looks good, and the character (actor) choice was okay by me. But god the writing was crap a lot. Things seemed very inconsistent at times, and silly throughout the whole movie/s.

Though the Tolkienish vein of silliness, even when concocted, were the least problem for me. Tolkien was humorous. I always loved the Plates song. With the Mountain song, complete contrast, soon after. Tolkien made it work fir me. Indeed, loved it. I can even still imagine the elves singing as they ride down into Rivendell. It could have been done, showing a lighter side to elves. Tolkien probably would not have wanted it in, but I think even he would be wrong on that. Just like when he tried to make the Tolkien ‘more’ adult. It was always adult enough for me, it’s the humorous and the serious expertly conjoined at the hip that makes the book for me.

Anyhow, ‘I almost liked the movie’ could also be ‘I actually kind of, sort of, enjoyed parts of it.’

One might say, if made right, the movie could have been as long as Jackson’s version. You just don’t get a lot of time to move along with the story. It dies not grew in the telling. It proceeds too fast and lacks drama and tension because of it.

‘I almost liked the movie’ could also be ‘I actually kind of, sort of, enjoyed parts of it.’ - Orwell

{{I am taking that as positive, given I am 100% certain you would not have said that of the original 3rd film. }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:‘I almost liked the movie’ could also be ‘I actually kind of, sort of, enjoyed parts of it.’ - Orwell

{{I am taking that as positive, given I am 100% certain you would not have said that of the original 3rd film. }}

I really, really, really do not want to see the original.

Orwell - Watching the original would make you feel like the scene in Clockwork Orange where they have Alex's eyelids pinned open so he can't avoid the horrendous scenes on screen.

Petty - I think the original appearence of Azog in the Misty Mountains can be safely taken out.  Bolg doesn't appear in the book until the Battle of Five Armies, so it's actually anti-Tolkien and somewhat jarring to have him appear in the Misty Mountains.  Perhaps there some continuity reason to keep him I don't see right now, but I'd prefer to have all his earlier appearances cut.  Your earlier draft showed that it worked quite nicely without him.

I'd even say it would be okay to leave in the flashback to the battle outside Moria, so that Thorin and Azog/Bolg have a reason to recognize each other if that's needed.  That's only slightly non-tolkien since they are supposed to be different characters, but there's no good story reason why they can't be the same.  And as Balin always gives the best performance of any of the cast I never mind a reason to get more of him.  It does help explain why the dwarves follow Thorin, which actually never made much sense in the book because he seemed such a fuddy-duddy.

Just my suggestions.

I think the original appearence of Azog in the Misty Mountains can be safely taken out. - Halfy

{{ Part of the problem is PJ has him pursue them from start of DoS to Mirkwood (and from the very firt scene), and was almost impossible to cut all shots of him and maintain coherence. And whilst Bolg doesnt appear in the book until the battle, he does get his set up earlier as avenging the death of the goblin King. As there is no set up for that motivation in PJs its odd for him to just show up out the blue at the very end.

Sorry there is no way I am going to put the flashback to the Battle of Arseandbull PJ gave us back in- I loath that scene and almost everything in it is wrong. I find it utterly crabbit inducing  and it shifts focus too much onto Thorin and away from Bilbo.}}

I just like more screen time with Balin: Ken Stott can do no wrong.  The only thing I see really wrong with the scene itself is that Azog is not killed and so comes back later to chase Thorin.  From a logical story point of view if Thorin is still alive there's no reason Azog would not be.  I object to earlier appearances of Azog because it takes focus off the journey itself, instead setting up an unneeded antagonist.  Swapping Bolg and Azog doesn't bother me so much.

But it's your edit, we may only seek agreement on consistency not personal taste. The book definitely doesn't focus on Thorin until the end.

{{ Stott is excellent, agreed. But that scene, almost everything in it is wrong, the people fighting, the reason for it, the people who die- its all wrong at every point. Plus the way its told and shot makes me crabbit.
Balin tells the tale in response to Fili and Kili joking about orcs, telling them Thorin has more reason to fear them than most before launching into a tale they would obviously already know!! Its not even like its Bilbo doing the asking, the only person who wouldnt know- then while Balin tells the tale Thorin goes and stands with his back to them looking moodily out from the clifftop awaiting his finale heroic moment at tales end to turn round- it actually makes me laugh out loud when I see it at how overly dramatic it is, its almost satire.
So for me it just pulls me right out the story whenever I see it.


You and Amarie set for 8pm viewing (which is 50mins from when I post this?)}}

Yep, I'm in 30 minutes from now.

I saw the scene as someone telling a story about you in a group, and you just listen quietly until the end. They are telling the story to make a point, no need to interfere. And he was telling the story not to inform the dwarves of history but to tell it from his vantage point. Fili and Kili would perhaps not have been alive or been very young then (what bugs me about the scene is Thorin is cast too young to tell a story about him from that long ago), so some scene setting is in order.

But yeah, if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work.

I'm afraid it doesn't look good for us. Too nice weather and Finrod is busy outside.

{{ Bugger. OK. Well Halfy either we delay a night or its just you and I- as Ive had to edit it in last week and watch it through to check its no biggie to delay for me, but if you'd rather not happy to join you for a watch- your call. }}

Hmm, lessee I do have some plans such as they are tomorrow afternoon (which is what this is for me) but I think I can work around it. Is nicer to have a third member on at least.

You lads are too kind

{{No problem,we will reschedule for when Amarie and you are both available- few enough of us taking part without losing a third!!
Just let me know when you can both make it.}}

Tomorrow or monday, but the sooner we get the schedule set the better. I have a slight preference for monday.

Not all is lost. Think of it as a stay of execution, and Petty as a friendly (somewhat crabbit) ghost who has lost the memory of his own execution, being in a ghostly groundhog kind of situation.

Good to have Orwell around to put everything in context.

Hey Amarie! We need a decision on Sunday versus Monday!

Still no confirmation from Amarie.    Today's very nice outside, I have something I'd like to get done then I'd very much like to go for a bike ride down to the park.

Let's say tomorrow at 8 London time no matter what. My next chance would be on Friday.