Re: Are The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit the best high fantasy movies ever?

by Eldorion Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:41 am

I don't think high fantasy was really a thing at the time, but I doubt Tolkien would have accepted the classification. He was aiming for a much older style. He even resented the classification of LOTR as a novel.

Letter 329 wrote:My work is not a 'novel', but an 'heroic romance' a much older and quite different variety of literature

Although he was probably using the (now somewhat antiquated) definition of a novel as a story that aspires to realism, and one could make the case that many modern "fantasy novels" owe as much or more to medieval romance as they do to early modern novels.

by Bluebottle Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:01 pm

High fantasy seem obviosuly to me an after the fact construct made to classify the tradition of writing that sprang out of Tolkien. What is often forgotten is that Tolkiens creation had had the undeniable air of originality. While Lords of the Rings does lean heavily on heroic romantic myths and legends, like the Arthurian Tales, it goes above and beyond that and created something completely new. Which is what we refer to as High Fantasy today, I guess. I'm not sure everyone who followed in his footsteps, while having their work refered to as High Fantasy, has managed to live up to that example. And many slumped back into writing heroic romantic myth, but it definitively started a new tradition.

As for the original question, I guess the problem so far is that the one external definition found rules out LotRs as High Fantasy, albeit while not realizing doing so, so I guess the question is kind of moot. Razz

by Bluebottle Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:01 pm

Eldorion wrote:Pretty much. I know some people who get really defensive about this definition (often they tend to be Robert Jordan fans ), and it does run the risk of defining the genre in too specific terms. But the debt to Tolkien is undeniable (though that doesn't stop everyone), and you don't have to be copying Tolkien exactly to still clearly be operating in the post-Tolkienian sphere. Series like ASOIAF come to mind. Obviously it owes a ton to real world history, and introduces various elements that distinguish it from Tolkien and his clones, but it's still working within the bounds of a genre that was established with Tolkien in mind. And I think GRRM has been very up-front about this.

Yes. Though I'd say GRRM should rather be considered someone who took the genre of fantasy in a new direction. With an infusion of originality and change in the paradigm of how fantasy should be written. Which he did by, as you say, introducing elements from the genre of historical ficiton, among other things. He does have his little fantasy story going on in the background, with the others and what's happening north of the wall, but most of the narrative in the book takes place on the human level. The whole allengrossing battle between good and evil that is such an earmark of any fantasy that followed Tolkien is made secondary. The battle between good and evil taking place in the human heart.

Obviously Tolkien is a general influence and it's written in his tradition, but a lot of what I like about Georges work is that he dares to take some distinct steps in his own direction. Though I guess his story will turn more towards the traditional fantasy part towards the end. So while he has introduced a lot of new elements, it's still ingrained in the fantasy tradition.

Anyway, obviously High Fantasy is not a narrow definition, it might include things that have taken a distinct step away from Tolkien, but not including Tolkien pretty much leaves the definition meaningless, yeah.

Eldorion wrote:(often they tend to be Robert Jordan fans )

Robert Jordan? Really? Razz

Though also there the Age before the current Age, which the story takes place in, history moves in a cyclical fashion in his world, has distinct similarities with the present day, and could perhaps be considered a fictional version of such. So that story might very well toy with falling into the same trap as Tolkien, anyway.

by Radaghast Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:50 pm

I feel it's only fair to mention authors like William Morris (The Well at World's End) and E.R. Eddison (The Worm Ouroboros), both of helped influence and inspire Tolkien.

by Mrs Figg Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:14 pm

Elthir wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote: the Owl looks like a Barn-aby to me.

Heheh good one Mrs Figg... that made me screech when I first saw-whet.

what a Hoot Very Happy

by Elthir Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:42 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:
Elthir wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote: the Owl looks like a Barn-aby to me.

Heheh good one Mrs Figg... that made me screech when I first saw-whet.

what a Hoot

Owl never forget that one!

by Elthir Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:45 pm

High middle or low aside... I thought we owl decided that Legend was the best fantasy film so far...

... if we took out some bad parts. Ahem.

Or maybe it was just that Legend had the best Unihorns on film?

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:47 pm

Oh dear, do Unihorns have a colour by any chance, and might it begin with g??

by Elthir Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:50 pm

Are there green Unihorns? Maybe.

Also, I meant Legend director's cut... although he coulda been cuttier in my opinion.

by azriel Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:46 pm

Dont encourage him Petty, im sure he's dying to say the "Ger" word Rolling Eyes

Just looking for the right excuse.

by Elthir Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:05 pm

I don't need to say it... for now!

I'll just say mith and any randirs of a different colour will just have to deal with my Sindarin... or Grey-elven... okay I needed to say it.

by Eldorion Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:14 am

Radaghast wrote:I feel it's only fair to mention authors like William Morris (The Well at World's End) and E.R. Eddison (The Worm Ouroboros), both of helped influence and inspire Tolkien.

That's a good point. These authors often get left out of the genre discussion because they were writing before most popular fiction genres were established, but it's worth recognizing that Tolkien was part of a wider literary scene.

I think that many of the divisions within fantasy can be seen in Tolkien/Lewis in the (for lack of a better term) British fairy tale tradition, and other (predominantly American) writers who came out of the pulp tradition, which greatly influenced sci-fi, fantasy, horror, and superheroes.

by Radaghast Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:23 am

Sounds about right.

BTW, I haven't read The Well at World's End (yet) but I have read The Worm Ouroboros and would recommend it heartily. I think it's time I re-read that.

by chris63 Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:20 am

Are The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit the best high fantasy movies ever?

Yes with The Belgarion a close 2nd.

http://davideddings.wikia.com/wiki/Garion

by Bluebottle Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:14 pm

Radaghast wrote:I feel it's only fair to mention authors like William Morris (The Well at World's End) and E.R. Eddison (The Worm Ouroboros), both of helped influence and inspire Tolkien.

Yeah, good point. He obviusly had both more contemporary and more distant inspirations. Nod

I'd be interested though, not having read either of them, how you would compare the one you read to Tolkiens work. Was it more like the Hobbit or LotRs? Would you say theres something that seperates Tolkiens writing from the one you read?

by Radaghast Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:46 pm

Bluebottle wrote:I'd be interested though, not having read either of them, how you would compare the one you read to Tolkiens work. Was it more like the Hobbit or LotRs? Would you say theres something that seperates Tolkiens writing from the one you read?

I'd say it's very different from Tolkien, though more similar to The Silmarillion than TLotR. I'd say it's closer to Greek myth.

by RA Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:47 am

Elthir wrote:
I'll just say mith and any randirs of a different colour will just have to deal with my Sindarin... or Grey-elven... okay I needed to say it.

I need to deal with my Silmarillion again...it's been a while since I read it.

by Mrs Figg Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:38 pm

I never read it all

by chris63 Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:05 am

Fantasy movie, sorry thought it was fantasy books thats why i had The Belgariad down as 2nd

http://davideddings.wikia.com/wiki/The_Belgariad

Lotr's still 1st.

by RA Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:17 am

Mrs Figg wrote:I never read it all

I forgive you

by Bluebottle Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:04 am

Recoveryanonymous wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:I never read it all
I forgive you

The Silmarillion is probably better read in parts anyway. The whole thing is a bit daunting.. and incoherent..

by Mrs Figg Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:26 pm

Recoveryanonymous wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:I never read it all
I forgive you

I like bits of it Embarassed

by malickfan Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:17 pm

Is it weird that I enjoy The Silmarillion and The Hobbit more than LOTR? (though I would agree LOTR is a much better, and more coherent book) I think I've actually read them both more often as well (probably because they are shorter).

by Ringdrotten Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:31 pm

Not weird at all Very Happy

I often can't decide which I enjoy the most (of LotR and TH, haven't read The Silmarillion). I've read LotR once a year for a few years now, and after I've read it I always have to read The Hobbit for some reason. When I read them in translation, however, my favourite by far is LotR (I've mentioned why too many times already, so I'll spare you all the praises & fanboy-ramblings this time Very Happy

)

by Eldorion Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:03 pm

I've also read The Hobbit and The Silm many more times than I've read LOTR. I considered TS and LOTR to be on par with each other for a while, but these days I've firmly in the LOTR camp. But yeah, the length makes it the hardest one to actually get through for me.

I never found The Silmarillion to be that daunting of a read. Maybe it's because I grew up devouring similar anthology-type works like D'Aulaire's Book of Greek Myths and, later, Edith Hamilton's Mythology, but the format clicked for me (although the Ainulindale is definitely pretty jarring if you don't know what you're getting into). I do still sometimes have to refer to the family trees and the index at the back, but I do that with ASOIAF too. Shrugging