Doctor Who [9]

Orwell...."The current (and 50 year old) Dr Who could be left for folk like me (and Azriel), simpler folk who like it just as it is."
And Im just about as simple as you can get{{{ in a Freudian sort of way }}}

'but who cannot stand the presence of a human who happens to have served in the military for several years because the idea of soldiery (no matter how non-violent, as Mr. Pink has several times reminded Clara) is so abhorrent to himself.'- Forest

I think this is too early to judge, we still know too little about Danny. The Doctor may know something about him we as of yet don't- Moffat is tricksy and the Doctor nearly always knows a lot more about what is going on than he lets on- 12 in particular has demonstrated this trait as much as any other Doctor since 7.
But even putting this aside 12 was born out of a Doctor who just spent 1000 years in a war in which he defended one town over and over for generations from multiple attacks from enemy soldiers. It is hardly surprising he has had enough of military matters, and he wasn't exactly keen on the military to start with.

'The star-whale, for example, is a benign creature that was trying to help the humans. It is forced, not to eat people, but to power the ship.'

It also eats people. It spares children but it eats the adults sent down the tubes to it, the same way the Doctor and Amy got chucked into its mouth.
But as it can refuse to eat children it could presumably equally refuse to eat anyone- but it doesn't- it eats the adults sent to it.
Yet the fact that during its captivity it killed people does not come into the Doctors judgement, or if it does does not weigh up for him against it under the circumstances.

The Teller is very similar in that regard. It is likewise forced into its actions, not by torture but by the threat to its mate, and when the Doctor judges it those it killed whilst held captive are not counted against it.

And the Doctor is not human, he judges on an alien morality that time and time again has been demonstrated to be different. He can see the turn of time, he knows a lot more about what is going to unfold from an event.

Ah yes, the "1000 year invasion that occurs in a Christmas town," I had successfully blocked that episode from my memory...

I agree that it's too early to judge Danny. As it stands now, however, the self-righteousness of his and Clara's stance on Danny's military past is hypocritical. (Clara has softened on her stance of course).
I mean, even the fact that the doctor puts the "Tellers" on an uninhabited planet is annoying, because the reason he puts them there is to give them peace from the thoughts of other beings. It's not even mentioned that here people will be safe from their mind-flaying!

P.S.
By the by, and I know this is ultimately a show for children, but the "military" that were constantly attacking that town thing had little to do with how real military work. In reality, they try and find solutions to problems, not just show up for comedic purposes. In fact, the military of Doctor Who often spend most of their time shooting ray guns at indestructible objects until they die. (I mean, how many times have we seen this happen with Daleks or Cybermen!)
To my mind, the events of Danny's past in the army (wherein he serves for a few years, apparently) are more real, and more meaningful, then twenty THOUSAND years of the Doctor fooling about in that Christmas theme-town.
Where does this sort of inspiration come from? This creative pomposity that drives a screenwriter to think to himself, "Hey, wouldn't it be great if we just threw enormous numbers at this episode? That would surely give it depth and meaning!"

What the fuck!

(arguably, and approximately):
Classic
1st: 450ish, it's rather vague.
2nd: 450-500
3rd: 500-748
4th: 748-813
5th: 813-900
6th: 900-953
7th: 953-1009
8th: 1009-1125(+600 or so spent on the planet Orbis)
Other doctors claimed various ages and mentioned various extended lengths of time here and there.

NuWho
War Doctor: 800-900
9th Doctor: 900-903
10th Doctor: 903-906
11th Doctor: 907-1200 by the end of Amy and Rory, then (he claims he is 1000 with Clara) 1000-whoOOP!-2100.

Clearly these dates jump all over the place, and the Doctor has never been all that clear on his exact age. In the past he's been vague and even said that he bases his age off of different year-models from around the universe.
Moffat. and other fans, has claimed that he doesn't think the Doctor knows his own age, and has lost track.
Regardless, there is a kind of consistency here, that went and more-than-doubled with the eleventh Doctor.

Of course Petty at least, and maybe others, will have logical explanations for this kind of ridiculousness, but we shall see if that can lessen the lunacy at all.

'The Doctor Lies' is a flimsy excuse to me, Classic Who was generally consistent when it comes to age, with New Who all they had to do was change 900 to 1000 or 1100 and it would have matched, I guess 900 sounds cooler...

It's worth noting Pertwee's Doctor claimed to be Thousands of years old at one point, I'm pretty sure The War Doctor stated he was 400 years younger than 11 (1200ish in DOTD), before regenerating at the end of the episode, if 10 was 907 when he regenerated, that means 9 was about 900 when he has regenerated into 10...so either the ninth Doctor spent 100 years after DOTD travelling around without looking at his face (this seems unlikely, in the episode Rose he examines himself in the mirror and comments on his appearance-the implication being this happened just after he regenerated) or he had decades of  of-screen adventures without Rose or Jack-in the ep Rose he asks her to travel with him, she initially says no, so he dissapears in the Tardis before materializing again a few seconds later, though a few seconds have passed for Rose, there have been several short stories set in this Gap from the Doctors perspective, The Doctor, Jack and Rose seem very well acquainted come Boom Town as well...

Although I agree 11 living longer then all his previous selves combined was frankly kinda stupid, it's still better than 10 living for four or five years. But I suppose 'ludicrously epic' was a fitting way for 11 to go out.

If Big Finish ever get the license to New Who it would be interesting to see if they explain/expand 9 and 10's short live spans, Moffat stated there is room for at Least 7 new companions for 11, but I don't think his time on Trenzalore would be that interesting to portray.

Here is a good overview of the Age situation:

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Doctor's_age

Forest Shepherd wrote:

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
That's the vast bulk of the new villains from series 5-7.
Apart from returning classic series villains those are almost all the new villains under Moffat. And all of them have some degree of shades of grey about their motivations and actions.
I think the message from Moffat era Who villains is don't judge a monster by its looks or assume its just a monster.

Well the thing is Petty, that in all these cases there is closure about the monster in question. We see the reason for it's behaving in such a way and it makes sense that the Doctor is no longer upset about it.
In this case, we have a Doctor who, on one hand, is alright with a brain-sucking monster-race going free because "it was forced to behave evilly"; but who cannot stand the presence of a human who happens to have served in the military for several years because the idea of soldiery (no matter how non-violent, as Mr. Pink has several times reminded Clara) is so abhorrent to himself.
You brought up a textbook's worth of monsters, but from what I remember I think you have very different examples.
The star-whale, for example, is a benign creature that was trying to help the humans. It is forced, not to eat people, but to power the ship.
The dwindling fish-people in Venice were, you may recall, rejected by the Doctor whole-sale.

In most of your other examples I believe the apparent threat (which is always presented in typical obvious threat-mode by the way (scare music, ominous photography, etc.)) turns out to be a misunderstood something-or-other.
In the most obvious comparison, the episode Hide, the rock-creature thingies never actually hurt anyone: they're simply scary.

In this case, the alien is let off too quickly. It's not really the focus of the episode, and they were tight on editing anyway, but it didn't feel right at all to simply let it and the other bellow off into the sunset like that.

I agree. what I dont like are the mixed messages with a sugary feelgood ending. either its one or the other, Moffat is having both his cake and eating it. The Mind Cow monster was morally ambiguous at best a ruthless killer at worst, thats ok, its not neat and tidy, so to give it a cuddly send off felt a bit of a cop-out. Not saying it should have been killed but it could have had some other outcome. it had been forced to kill to save its mate, so have some humans, and when that happens the humans in question dont just skip off into the sunset, they are generally sent before a jury or have some penance to pay. is it ok to kill for a justifiable end, how many people can you kill to save ones mate 10? 10,000? its a bag of snakes, but the episode made it look easy and superficial.

azriel wrote:Orwell...."The current (and 50 year old) Dr Who could be left for folk like me (and Azriel), simpler folk who like it just as it is."
And Im just about as simple as you can get{{{ in a Freudian sort of way   }}}

{{{Azzy, do you know what the boffins are gabbling on about? Sounds a bit deep to me. Maybe it's some existentialist all consuming life and death reality - and danger to humanty? - that they are wrestling with; something which is beyond the mndfulness of the likes of you and me to comprehend? We are still talking about Doctor Who, childrens adventure show for adults, aren't we? }}}

well if it is good enough for Tolkien it should be good enough for Who.

{{Azzy, is Mrs Figg reading my private encrypted messages again? Does this mean the rumours about her being a tricky witch are true after all? }}}

'The Doctor Lies' is a flimsy excuse to me, Classic Who was generally consistent when it comes to age- <alick

I think the Doctor lies (because he genuinely doesn't know) is a perfectly acceptable reasoning of the differences.
Even in classic Who the various Doctors who give an age nearly always contradict the other Doctors claims.
As has been noted 3 claimed to be many thousands of years old yet 4 said he was only 750 (which would also mean 5, 6,7,8 and 9 only lasted collectively for 250 years for 10 to claim he was 900), and in the second series of 7's run there are strong hints the Doctor is way older than suspected, at least as back as far as the Rassilion era, probably to the very beginnings of Time Lord society, and possibly since the beginning of Time.

'To my mind, the events of Danny's past in the army (wherein he serves for a few years, apparently) are more real, and more meaningful, then twenty THOUSAND years of the Doctor fooling about in that Christmas theme-town.'- Forest

Whether you personally liked the Trenzalore stuff or not is not relevant when discussing the effect a thousand year war might have had on the character of the Doctor.
It seems perfectly reasonable to me that someone who spent that amount of time defending one place from attempt after attempt by military bodies to take the town would have a less than positive view of all things military by the end of a thousand years of it.


but I don't think his time on Trenzalore would be that interesting to portray.- Malick

There is already at least one novel set during the Trenzalore period. No Big finish yet.

Orwell wrote:

azriel wrote:Orwell...."The current (and 50 year old) Dr Who could be left for folk like me (and Azriel), simpler folk who like it just as it is."
And Im just about as simple as you can get{{{ in a Freudian sort of way   }}}

{{{Azzy, do you know what the boffins are gabbling on about? Sounds a bit deep to me. Maybe it's some existentialist all consuming life and death reality - and danger to humanty? - that they are wrestling with; something which is beyond the mndfulness of the likes of you and me to comprehend? We are still talking about Doctor Who, childrens adventure show for adults, aren't we?   }}}

{{{Orwey, they are being consumed by an infinite wish to know it all, its a very bad addiction, thankfully will pass over our heads, you & I, being as we are so fundamentally uninterested ! }}}

Orwell wrote:{{Azzy, is Mrs Figg reading my private encrypted messages again?   Does this mean the rumours about her being a tricky witch are true after all? }}}

{{{ oh yes dont ever underestimate the dark, encrypted powers of a 7th daughter of a 7th daughter of a High priestess Eel wrangler Supreme ! There's so much more she can probably do than stroke eels I should take this as a warning }}}

Why does the Who thread smell of peppermint?

Polo anyone ?

Pettytyrant101 wrote: 'To my mind, the events of Danny's past in the army (wherein he serves for a few years, apparently) are more real, and more meaningful, then twenty THOUSAND years of the Doctor fooling about in that Christmas theme-town.'- Forest

Whether you personally liked the Trenzalore stuff or not is not relevant when discussing the effect a thousand year war might have had on the character of the Doctor.
It seems perfectly reasonable to me that someone who spent that amount of time defending one place from attempt after attempt by military bodies to take the town would have a less than positive view of all things military by the end of a thousand years of it.

But that's the point. These "military bodies" are not military bodies at all. They are inept bunglers.
Yes, this would explain his rude dislike of anything military, but the stupidity of making the siege last so freakin' long is that it takes the entire event and skews it out of all proportion.
I know he's among the same mindless helpless christmas drones the whole time, but a THOUSAND YEARS should have changed the Doctor in ways far beyond "he now hates military even more than before!"
I'm not going to give the show the benefit of the doubt and agree that the Doctor is probabaly incredibly ancient even by Time-lord standards. With that in mind, a thousand years is nearly the entire length of the Doctor's life thus far. Consider all the changes we have seen over the decades from the First Doctor to the 11th. Trying to imagine all that change happening mostly off-screen during a thousand year siege is mind-boggling.
Almost as mind-boggling as the idea that the Doctor would not have changed drastically during this time.

A thousand years is long enough to write a history of the universe. A thousand years is long enough to count all the sand particles on a beach and give them all names too. A thousand years is long enough to philosophize out all the possible endless viewpoints between all the races that have ever been and unravel all the possible solutions, explanations for, and ramifications of all warfare. If anything, the Doctor should have such a deep personal well of understanding and insight into why people kill each other that he should have infinite patience with all things military. He has spent so much time dealing with soldiers by the end of the siege that he should have come to know the mind of the soldier better than anything else he has ever experienced before.
He should not grow to hate it (because the Doctor is not a hateful person), but rather to understand why it exists and how he can help change it. His deftness at handling soldiery should be so fine-tuned, exact, and accurate that he should possess a limitless arsenal of logical, emotional and personal procedures for helping "de-soldier" soldiers.
Even if he has faced mostly irritreivably-evil Daleks and Cybermen, the Doctor should fully comprehend the difference between a HUMAN soldier and a mother-flipping Dalek. In the human (a race he has praised for its admirable traits) he should be able to, like the world's most skilled brain surgeon, pick apart the threads of that person's mind and help them to see what it is that they have done wrong in their military role.

If he had spent several years in the Christmas town and had to fight back wave after wave of (bungling) military then perhaps we could understand his impatience with military characteristics.
But to spend A THOUSAND YEARS on the planet, he must transcend mere anger in his response. He must have grown as a person and achieved a practical state of "all-seeing."

I think the show-creators were dealing with ramifications far beyond their responsibility pay-grade when they introduced a damn millenium into the show.
They need to cut that crap out.
It's ridic.
Straight up.

(He's got very strong view points hasnt he ) Forest shepherd

But that's the point. These "military bodies" are not military bodies at all. They are inept bunglers. - Forest

That is entirely your own view point. Not that of the shows. In the show the siege of Trenzalore lasts 900 years and the Doctor defends the town against the most powerful militaries in the Who-verse.
You as a viewer cant just decide they were inept and bungling and then use that as your excuse to not like the consequences of those events in the show.
Its an utterly false premise.

'I'm not going to give the show the benefit of the doubt and agree that the Doctor is probabaly incredibly ancient even by Time-lord standards.'

Again, your choice, The show however has in episodes occasions where the Doctor or other characters strongly indict he is a lot older than he lets on, or possibly even knows.
You can choose to ignore those instances but it doesn't stop them being right there in the show.

'With that in mind, a thousand years is nearly the entire length of the Doctor's life thus far.'

Once more you have chosen to ignore something in the show you don't like, then proceed as if the thing doesn't exist and use that as the root of your complaint.
We have no idea as viewers how old the Doctor is.
What we do have is a lot of contradictory information about it. As it should be, its part of the Who aspect of the character.
There is a reason every showrunner contradicts each other over the Doctor's age. Its part of the mystery of the Doctor.

'He has spent so much time dealing with soldiers by the end of the siege that he should have come to know the mind of the soldier better than anything else he has ever experienced before.'

And the writers have concluded after knowing soldiers better than anyone else he doesn't like soldiers. Seems a fair conclusion to me.
But there is also the wider issue about why the Doctor chooses the people he does as companions. A running theme in NuWho is that his companions are a reflection of himself. 11 said they were the best parts of himself.
Having a soldier on board would reflect that aspect back at the Doctor. His own history as a soldier. He might not have liked it but he was a soldier. Both in the time war and on Trenzalore, and quite possibly just doesn't want to be reminded every waking minute of that aspect of himself.

'He should not grow to hate it (because the Doctor is not a hateful person), but rather to understand why it exists and how he can help change it.'

He doe shave hate. He hates Daleks as Into the Dalek demonstrated. That he has these darker aspects to his character- that he tries to do the right thing despite his own sins is one of the interesting aspects about the character as a hero.

'I think the show-creators were dealing with ramifications far beyond their responsibility pay-grade when they introduced a damn millenium into the show.
They need to cut that crap out.'

So too then were the writers of the 3rd Doctor when they had him say he was thousands of years old, so too were the writers of the 7th Doctor when they did like wise, so to was RTD when he deliberately made him only 900.

You cannot dictate what can and what cannot be Doctor Who. The show has never worked like that. And would not have survived this long if it did.

Tonights episode retro style poster-

Im even liking the opening music, love the poster

I've been liking a lot of the music this series.
Really like 12's theme too, no official soundtrack yet but folks have been cobbling their own version together from the episodes-

Oooh I do love Peter Capaldi

Spoiler:

 I liked this episode, It had a lot of facets to it, tho....

Spoiler:

That wasn't too shabby! If only it was possible to hear them properly all the time... Rather annoying at times.

I still enjoy the lack of Amy. That is what I like the most.

Its funny how you are attracted to some people & not to others, I was not very keen on Amy myself, Rose wasnt to bad ? but I think I like Clara best.

Spoiler:

I notice the mumbling too! I thought it was my ears going wonky, but the background music is very loud.

Spoiler:

Pettytyrant101 wrote: But that's the point. These "military bodies" are not military bodies at all. They are inept bunglers. - Forest

That is entirely your own view point. Not that of the shows. In the show the siege of Trenzalore lasts 900 years and the Doctor defends the town against the most powerful militaries in the Who-verse.
You as a viewer cant just decide they were inept and bungling and then use that as your excuse to not like the consequences of those events in the show.
Its an utterly false premise.

Does anyone die during this siege? At all?
The Sontarans are used for comedic purposes and the Daleks are so inept that they can't even hit the Doctor when he stands in full view of their ships.
Calling something "the most ________" of anything does not make it so for the viewers. In Into the Dalek we are to understand that the inside of the Dalek is the most dangerous place in the universe, when in reality the Doctor has been in boatloads of worst places.
It's a harmless siege of make-believe, and that is what we viewers are meant to see.

Of course, at the same time, hyperbole is just part of the show. It's an aspect of the loveable dorkiness that Doctor Who undeniably possesses.

Pettytyrant101 wrote: 'I'm not going to give the show the benefit of the doubt and agree that the Doctor is probabaly incredibly ancient even by Time-lord standards.' -Forest

Again, your choice, The show however has in episodes occasions where the Doctor or other characters strongly indict he is a lot older than he lets on, or possibly even knows.
You can choose to ignore those instances but it doesn't stop them being right there in the show.

I should clarify! "I'm not going to give unpublished fan-theories precedence over what the Doctor has mostly said about how old he is."

Pettytyrant101 wrote: 'With that in mind, a thousand years is nearly the entire length of the Doctor's life thus far.' -Forest

Once more you have chosen to ignore something in the show you don't like, then proceed as if the thing doesn't exist and use that as the root of your complaint.
We have no idea as viewers how old the Doctor is.
What we do have is a lot of contradictory information about it. As it should be, its part of the Who aspect of the character.
There is a reason every showrunner contradicts each other over the Doctor's age. Its part of the mystery of the Doctor.

We do have what the Doctor most often tells people. On the whole, he's been pretty consistent about his age, even with these fluctuations. Otherwise, why would there have even been any wonder at the restating of the Doctor's age back when the show started up again? "This is an inconsistency with the most recent Who," people said, not, "well who knows."
I'd compare it to the Tardis. It has strange quirks and additions over the years, but the basic idea of it never changes.
Speaking of the Tardis, surely such a complicated piece of Time-lord technology would contain an internal clock?

Pettytyrant101 wrote: 'He has spent so much time dealing with soldiers by the end of the siege that he should have come to know the mind of the soldier better than anything else he has ever experienced before.'

And the writers have concluded after knowing soldiers better than anyone else he doesn't like soldiers. Seems a fair conclusion to me.
But there is also the wider issue about why the Doctor chooses the people he does as companions. A running theme in NuWho is that his companions are a reflection of himself. 11 said they were the best parts of himself.
Having a soldier on board would reflect that aspect back at the Doctor. His own history as a soldier. He might not have liked it but he was a soldier. Both in the time war and on Trenzalore, and quite possibly just doesn't want to be reminded every waking minute of that aspect of himself.

We shall see how this plays out what with Danny being around more often, should be interesting.

Pettytyrant101 wrote: 'He should not grow to hate it (because the Doctor is not a hateful person), but rather to understand why it exists and how he can help change it.'

He doe shave hate. He hates Daleks as Into the Dalek demonstrated. That he has these darker aspects to his character- that he tries to do the right thing despite his own sins is one of the interesting aspects about the character as a hero.

The Doctor is not a hateful person. He takes the hatred that he has for things like the Daleks and tries to do good anyway.
It is a contradiction to say that the Doctor is hateful because he feels hatred and tries to do the right thing anyway; that's not what a hateful person does.

Pettytyrant101 wrote: 'I think the show-creators were dealing with ramifications far beyond their responsibility pay-grade when they introduced a damn millenium into the show.
They need to cut that crap out.'

So too then were the writers of the 3rd Doctor when they had him say he was thousands of years old, so too were the writers of the 7th Doctor when they did like wise, so to was RTD when he deliberately made him only 900.

You cannot dictate what can and what cannot be Doctor Who. The show has never worked like that. And would not have survived this long if it did.

Well unless you're the showrunner. Amirite? That's kind of their job.a

Unless you mean that, as a fan, I'm not allowed to have an opinion. In which case...