Re: Doctor Who [9]

by Eldorion Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:37 pm

Orwell wrote:(((Err... Eldo I managed to erase your last post even as I was replying to your last post! But, yes, check out Pinky! You won't be disappointed --- and I hope Ringo doesn't find out... }}}

{{{I occasionally hit edit instead of quote, but I've gotten better at catching that.}}}

{{{And I'll keep my eyes peeled for Pinky if I ever watch the current season. Wink

}}}

by Ringdrotten Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:10 pm

Orwell wrote:(((Err... Eldo I managed to erase your last post even as I was replying to your last post! But, yes, check out Pinky! You won't be disappointed --- and I hope Ringo doesn't find out... }}}

Find out about what? Suspect

by Eldorion Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:15 pm

Umm ... how far into the Needlehole fanfic have you made it yet?

Sofa

by Ringdrotten Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:16 pm

chapter 3 of Work-a-Hobbit.. should I read any further? Laughing

by Mrs Figg Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:35 pm

Spoiler:

by malickfan Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:57 pm

Spoiler-Thoughts on Kill The Moon:

Spoiler:

by azriel Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:21 pm

Spoiler:

by malickfan Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:57 pm

I guess this is for Petty, as I don't think anyone else is familiar with Big Finish?

A few random musings on the eps I've listened to so far (I've heard a few bits and peices of others, and some of the 8DA, but I'm not counting those) but I don't know what you've listened to or not so this could be totally pointless:

(Some of these I listened to a few weeks ago, so my thoughts are kinda Hazy)

Spoiler:

A couple of questions though:

Is there any suggestion in the later audios, as to wear Storm Warning takes place in 8's storyline? (He mentions Grace from the TV film at one point, and I know there is a Mary Shelley trilogy set some years before) Decades after the TV film (which to be honest, I'm not that keen to watch given it's reputation...), or before/after the books/comics (It's kinda confusing on that one, the wiki seems to count them as both canon/non canon when it comes to 8?

Mcgann has quickly landed himself in my top three (behind Hartnell and Tennant/Capaldi catching up).

Is the Divergent Universe arc following Zagreus as bad/weird as I've read?

Any suggestions as to what to listen to next? Would I need a grounding in 4-7 to understand their audios?

by azriel Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:15 pm

Spoiler:

by Mrs Figg Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:41 pm

malickfan wrote:
Spoiler-Thoughts on Kill The Moon:

Spoiler:

by **Orwell** Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:56 am

Um... Courtney is one of those annoying tenagers that are annoying teenagers. One doesn't have to like her - it's what makes her realistic. She's all over the place - jumps from from one mood to the next in the flcker of an eye, just like a lot of real teenagers. Azriel is spot on about that. Nod

Clara is supurb! cheers

So is the Doctor! cheers

Believeable (not necessarily always likeable) characters and ridiculous (science fiction/fantasy) stories. It's called escapism, Mrs Figg. Here to help! Very Happy

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:43 am

Blimey I come too from my birthday celebrations- they lasted a little longer than planned as half way through I realized I was 43 and had to get drunk all over again to cope Mad

- to find that apart from Orwell and Amarie everyone else seems to be watching a different series of Who to me, as the one I am watching is consistently amongst the best run of Who I have ever seen.

Anyway, here is my review, afterwards I will address points raised by the rest of you and point out why you are completely wrong Twisted Evil

Spoiler:

'Before that it was just Riddick lite. Boring.'- Figg

Given the hugely imaginative premise, the eerie set up and the emotional resolution I sometimes wonder what you wouldn't find 'boring' Figg.

'I couldnt hear what they were saying a lot of the time, lots of mumbling, and its not my ears going.'- Figg

Maybe your tv or monitor settings are off. I had no problems at all picking up the dialogue.

'Rather weak storyline, with little to no grasp of logic or tension. Once again the tertiary supporting characters had nothing to work with.'- Malick

I think you are looking or logic in the wrong places if you are looking for it in Who. As I pointed out in my review this is no more preposterous or illogical than rather a lot of Who that has gone before it. What is important here is that the preposterous premise serves a genuine narrative purpose for the characters involved. In that sense I would rate t considerably higher than the TARDIS towing earth about in 10's run, as that scene served no purpose and was just there for a feel good cheer moment. The premise here and the dilemma generated were the core of the character beats.
I don't think it would have warranted a two parter but another fifteen minutes to give time to expand on the secondary characters would have been good.

'Kinda dissapointed it wasn't the Star Whale from Beast Below'- Malick

That thought also crossed my mind, but then it occurred that it wouldn't make much sense they didnt know what the star whale was when it returned.

'that schoolgirl was irritating and inconsistent, scared, bored then thoroughly interested all in the space of five minutes.'- Malick

I don't agree, I liked how they wrote Courtney in this. She was keen at the start, then understandably when people started dying and giant moon spiders tried to kill her she wanted to go home. She got bored only when she was left alone on the TARDIS for a period of time with nothing to do but wait, which again is perfectly understandable, especially for a teenager. But when she realizes the scale of the decision they have to make and what it was about- a life- she was determined to come back and help make that decision, and indeed insists on it even when told by Clara she is a lot safer where she is right now, showing Courtney's underlying strength of character.
I can see why the Doctor likes her and took her along originally. There's more beneath her brash attitude surface than it appears.

'Last week she said she loved him & I thought "eh? thats a bit quick, love based on what ?'- Azriel

I dont find it implausible at all. She sees him every day, last week episode showed us that some time had passed in which Clara goes off on adventures with the Doctor and returns to be with Danny. They seem to have been dating for some time, weeks at least, possibly months, and they work together- more than long enough to fall in love with someone. I've fallen in love in less time (ok that was with buckie).

'it was weak and we have seen it a thousand times before.'- Figg

Um, really? Where? When? Because I have seen every episode of Who in existence, and never seen one quite like that before.

'That whole dynamic was the only interesting bit of the episode for me, it got tacked onto the end like someone else had written it.'- Figg

This I just dont understand as the confrontation at the end has been seeded in every preceding episode from Deep Breath onwards. The character development and the events have all been leading to just such a moment so the idea its tacked on seems absurd to me.

'what kind of shitface makes a friend do that? considering he knew everything would turn out fine and 'nobody dies''

The same sort that refuses to save anyone on Pompey. The same sort that makes Rory choose between two versions of his wife, both equally valid.
And he didn't know, he states this clearly at the start and again at the end in his conversation with Clara, it was a pivot point in time the outcome of which he could not determine until the choice was made.

Eldo- I would say series 8 is a great place to start watching- and you only have 7 episodes to catch up on rather than 50 years worth!

Malick I will respond to your Big Finish post in another post as its on a different subject.

by Mrs Figg Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:20 pm

One of the very worst episodes for a long time, very dull apart from Clara at 5 minutes from the episodes end. it felt real, the other 55 minutes was a yawn, complete with wooden secondary characters, and unscary spiders, cop-out ending.
The very worst thing however was the overpowering stench of politically correct parenting that has turned todays very Young children into whiny, entitled losers. What other generation in the Whole history of mankind has needed to be called 'special' by some random stranger otherwise their Whole sense of self confidence turns to mush? what a load of shite. what about her parents, her family, friends, Teachers? no. its a random guy. ok its the Doctor, but still why do all kids have to be told they are Genius? not everybody is special, its mamby pamby liberal guardian reading claptrap. In schoolrooms throughout the land, mediocre kids are being lied to, told they are 'special' when they are really not, it kills progress, its the beginning of a nation of losers thinking they are gods gift. So poor little Courtney needs confirmation she is something extraordinary, an extraordinary pain in the ass more like. *oldfartrantover*

by azriel Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:27 pm

I love your *oldfartrant* Figgs, I agree with what you say about kids today, tell em the fooking truth ! "yeah Johnny Smith, your not good at this but, your very good at that, so, concentrate on that & stop mooning about this !" Give them a backbone, not a spine of jelly.
And Petty ! well, you came back with a Bang! Listening to you is like watching a bloke scoffing up his dinner Razz

You seem quite passionate about Dr who, Nod

I look forward to it, I enjoy it, Id go ape shit if it ever vanished off our TV mainly cos its SO bloody British, its been there growing along side us but, I dont really feel the need to go to deep with it, I like that you love it, as I can tell you do. Very Happy

I kinda like it when anyone has feelings for the thing they enjoy. Very Happy

by Forest Shepherd Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:32 pm

I'm behind again!
Anyway, what about my criticism of Time Heist Petty? I think I raised some points you hadn't covered in your overview of the episode. At the very least:

Spoiler:

Anyway, I'm going to catch up on Who by tonight hopefully, so I'll post my thoughts by then!

P.S.
I updated RtD and noone has even noticed that I can tell. Mad

Too many birthday revelries going on this time of year!

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:58 pm

You seem quite passionate about Dr who- Azriel

I am passionate about good imaginative writing, and its very good writing. Whilst other channels are offering Saturday night entertainment that are just variations on talent shows Who is offering compelling character drama and simply wonderfully bonkers premises with the capability to spark the imaginations of children and make the adults stop and think.
Thats incredibly rare and precious.

Forest-

Spoiler:

by Forest Shepherd Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:49 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
Forest-
Spoiler:

That's not really how the show works though. If given a choice between obviousness and subtlety (especially as relates to the intentions of aliens) the show picks obviousness.

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:47 am

given a choice between obviousness and subtlety (especially as relates to the intentions of aliens) the show picks obviousness.- Forest

I cant agree with that premise at all, particularly not in NuWho and particularly not in Moffat era Who. In fact I cant even agree with that notion about classic Who (the first Silurian episodes spring readily to mind).

Some examples-

- the Atraxi, try to burn the earth against Inter Galactic Law but on the other hand are enforcing and upholding their own rule of law in trying to deal with an incredibly dangerous escaped prisoner.
-the star whale, a misunderstood creature being pressed into service by torture when it only wanted to help. But it does still eat people alive.
-the vampire/fish people- willing to sacrifice all the lives in Venice but doing so as their own world was consumed in the cracks in time and it is the only way left to them to save their species from extinction.
-Weeping Angels- not evil per se, their method of killing is less harsh than many (you get to live out your life still, just in the past) and they are reacting off instinct.
-the creature in the Van Gogh episode- kills several people but does so out of being afraid and lost as it has been blinded and abandoned by its own species.
-Karzan in the Xmas Carol- bad person who became bad rather being inherently bad and who redeemed himself.
- the Siren in the pirate episode- appears to kill people and to be a threat but in reality is trying to help.
- the Flesh- kills to preserve itself but does so due to long standing brutality conducted against it and is only fighting for the right to equally exist and be recognized as having the right to exist.
-Night Terrors- alien child that causes harm through the fear of rejection.
-Madame Kovarian and the Silence do a lot of brutal and nasty things, but do so with the motivation of preventing a thousand year war and the possible reigniting of the Time War threatening all existence and to save their religion and the Papal Mainframe form Dalek control.
-the Minotaur in God Complex- kills people in order to feed on their faith, the only way it can feed. Originally trapped their when the people who used to worship it as a God no longer had a use for it, made a prisoner until its old and dying.
-the doctor in Mercy- conducted brutal experiments on is own people to create super killing machines- but in doing so ended a centuries long war and ushered in a new era of peace.
-the head company woman in Bells of St John- an innocent child originally to which she reverts when the GI releases its mind control over her.
-the creature in Hide- just looking for its partner.
-the tree people in Doctor and the Widow, threatened with death by acid rain, start off as a seeming threat but in the end are only trying to save everyone and preserve life.

That's the vast bulk of the new villains from series 5-7.
Apart from returning classic series villains those are almost all the new villains under Moffat. And all of them have some degree of shades of grey about their motivations and actions.
I think the message from Moffat era Who villains is don't judge a monster by its looks or assume its just a monster.

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:23 am

This weeks episode sees another new writer join the Who team- Jamie Mathieson.
Previously he wrote seven episodes of Being Human, 1 episode of the Dirk Gently series, and the budget scifi film Frequently Asked Questions About Time Travel (which not only sets his credentials for Who up nicely but I found was a highly entertaining way to spend an hour and a half of your time).

by **Orwell** Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:32 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I am passionate about good imaginative writing, and its very good writing. Whilst other channels are offering Saturday night entertainment that are just variations on talent shows Who is offering compelling character drama and simply wonderfully bonkers premises with the capability to spark the imaginations of children and make the adults stop and think.
Thats incredibly rare and precious.

A children's show for adults --- or an adult show suitable for children --- works both ways. Loving it. I am a fan again. Very Happy

by azriel Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:27 am

And thats exactly why I am so fond of Dr Who, tho I didnt explain myself fully ! Its everything Orwell said, its full of imagination, so what if it seems ridiculous or outrageous, thats what sci-fi is, the unleashing of imagination where anything goes, anything is possible. I get to see the good guys defeat the not so good guys but, in a way thats exceptable , without seeing blood,guts,brains & body parts splattering the screen,There's no effing & jeffing, no tits,bums & other bits flapping about,no Oohing & Arg'ing as characters are furiously & noisily getting 'at it'. I wont feel embarrassed watching Dr Who with anyone, be them 6yrs old or 60. Thats why I dont want to analyse it, I dont wanna go into it to deep, Ive got all the enjoyment & entertainment I want or need. Of course Im going nit pick now & again, Im a laaaady, & its human instinct but, I dont let it get skin deep cos Ive enjoyed it ! Its the stuff I DONT enjoy that I nit pick the most.AND, Dr Who is so familiar that its now a comfort. Its been with my life growing up with me, aging along with me. its my cosy blanket I can snuggle into. I envied the dr when I was a kid. whenever life was shit for me Id crawl inside a big cardboard box I had in my bedroom, make whooshing noises & PRETEND I was somewhere else ( that & crawl into my wardrobe & pretend to go to Narnia ! ) Id leap out & act all 'Dr-ish', made me feel better. thats the effect Dr Who has on me. I dont wanna hear that you can only have X amount of Dr's ! find an excuse to bloody well keep it going ! It cant stop, as long as the Tardis 'woo-woo's' thru space I want the Dr to 'woo-woo' to ! Very Happy

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:50 am

I tend to examine all drama rather closely with regards to the writing, I like to see the craft and the skill and to pry it open to try to learn its secrets Twisted Evil

I love that you used to have a cardboard box TARDIS Azriel- I had one too! Very Happy

(might still do Embarassed

)

by Mrs Figg Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:22 pm

the test for me is can I watch it multiple times or not. and I have to say that I wont be watching any of these new episodes again for a long time, maybe not at all. I would even watch some of Smiths episodes again with more pleasure because they seem to have a modicum of complexity and depth(maybe too much) I never thought I would prefer Smiths era to Capaldis, but this current series stories are a bit underwhelming for my taste. I like bits of them, like Capaldi himself a lot and Clara is great, and I love Danny Pink he seems to ground everyone with his empathy and brains, (he seems like the most RTDesque character since um.. RTD maybe thats why I like him, he would be right at home with Donna Razz

). The stories themselves are a bit weak apart from Missy/heaven thingie. whats happened to the writing?

by **Orwell** Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:49 pm

I'm enjoying the writing. Enough of the ridiculous, enough of the thoughtful, enough of the adventure, enough of the dark side for my taste. I've been watching a few of the Classic Who tales (Pertwee mainly) and it was no more complex then than it is now. I expect a story that I can get swept along with but not necessarily one I will watch again for a long time - or ever. To me the Doctor has always been like a 'Neighbours' scifi in a sense - though a bit more cerebral and outlandish. I'm with you Azriel on this. Nod

I'm having a deja vu moment now - there are folk who criticise the Hobbit (includeing Tolkien himself!) saying it should have been re-written in a more LotR fashion. Not for me. (Indeed, I have thought for a long time that LotrR is The Hobbit written for slightly older audience) So, maybe, they should start a new show called "Timelord" or something, written to satisfy Mrs Figg and her School of Doctor Whovians. You know, serious, complex, intellectually challenging, realistic, brilliantly imaginative - a Ulysses (James Joyce) version of Who, not so much The Hobbit version. The current (and 50 year old) Dr Who could be left for folk like me (and Azriel), simpler folk who like it just as it is. Very Happy

by Forest Shepherd Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:37 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
That's the vast bulk of the new villains from series 5-7.
Apart from returning classic series villains those are almost all the new villains under Moffat. And all of them have some degree of shades of grey about their motivations and actions.
I think the message from Moffat era Who villains is don't judge a monster by its looks or assume its just a monster.

Well the thing is Petty, that in all these cases there is closure about the monster in question. We see the reason for it's behaving in such a way and it makes sense that the Doctor is no longer upset about it.
In this case, we have a Doctor who, on one hand, is alright with a brain-sucking monster-race going free because "it was forced to behave evilly"; but who cannot stand the presence of a human who happens to have served in the military for several years because the idea of soldiery (no matter how non-violent, as Mr. Pink has several times reminded Clara) is so abhorrent to himself.
You brought up a textbook's worth of monsters, but from what I remember I think you have very different examples.
The star-whale, for example, is a benign creature that was trying to help the humans. It is forced, not to eat people, but to power the ship.
The dwindling fish-people in Venice were, you may recall, rejected by the Doctor whole-sale.

In most of your other examples I believe the apparent threat (which is always presented in typical obvious threat-mode by the way (scare music, ominous photography, etc.)) turns out to be a misunderstood something-or-other.
In the most obvious comparison, the episode Hide, the rock-creature thingies never actually hurt anyone: they're simply scary.

In this case, the alien is let off too quickly. It's not really the focus of the episode, and they were tight on editing anyway, but it didn't feel right at all to simply let it and the other bellow off into the sunset like that.